Freelance Writer Salaries: Are You Allergic to Money?
One of the biggest mindset hurdles I see with students, freelance writers, and freelance content strategists is the hives that happen when we have to talk about rates in our community or with our clients. It doesn't have to be that way…and you can stop taking Benadryl when the “M” word is said :).
This week's livestream is going over the different freelance writer “salaries” you can expect in your journey, how to move beyond your potential money allergy, how to talk to clients about money and rates, and why normalizing currency conversations matters in our industry.
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Freelance Writer Salaries: Are You Allergic to Money?
So this is part of the conversation that I have all the time with freelance writers, whether it's coaching students or people who email me. I have these conversations about money all the time, and it's like they're breaking out in hives or they're having like a severe allergic reaction to either talking about money setting rates, um, figuring out like how they should set a salary, all that stuff.
So that's what we're talking about today. Hello, Celeste. Hello Marie. Hello, SNA and Jennifer. And Phia welcome. I'm glad you guys are here. So this is a really important topic too, because, um, I feel like a lot of freelance writers are allergic to money. Like, I feel like this is something where, um, gosh, like they just, they feel that it should be one way and it's not, or they're like so afraid to talk about it with their clients.
That they're just like, no, we never talk about it. We just do whatever the client says, blah, blah, blah, blah. Right? And it's not really like that. So we're gonna go over a few things, um, when it comes to freelance writer wealth and freelance writer salaries and what we could kind of expect. First thing I wanna say though is if you haven't grabbed my free pricing guide, do that.
That's why we're talking about money, our community of freelance writers, right? All of us should talk more about money and rates and pricing. So I pulled this right, so I pulled all these things together for freelance writers and content strategists. It's totally free. Go to mandy ellis.com/pricing guide to grab it.
My hair keeps like falling down in my face. It's like itching my face, bugging me. Okay. Sorry. The horse is awesome. Yeah, and Jennifer's like unicorn. Yeah. So grab the pricing guide. All right. It's free. Hold on. My computer doesn't wanna click today, so hold. We're trying to, I'm trying to get it to do. There we go.
Okay. So here's the thing, the first thing we're talking about is like salary. So we're gonna go through kind of different pieces of what you can expect. So I don't ever think about a salary. I think this is something that happens when someone comes from the cubicle farm. And they're like, how do I know what salary I should expect as a freelance writer?
That's not it. That's not it. Now there's certain amounts, like there's certain amounts of money that I feel like people get stuck at that's not really a salary. That's like a mindset thing or a client thing, or a rates thing. So oftentimes people get somewhere between like 10 and 20 K, and sometimes they can get real stuck in there trying to get to the next level.
But most of the time, this freelance writer, like salary. Bit that I see people get stuck at is 30 to 50 K, and I used to have this problem. That's how I see it like more often is I see a lot more writers getting stuck at the 30 to 50 K mark and then they can't get over it. This is a lot to do with rates and pricing, your schedule, how you're like attracting the right clients, how you're setting up your LinkedIn and your website, all that stuff.
All of that, all of those things go together. So a lot of times freelance writers get started. They make their first 10, 15, 20 k, and they're like, sweet, it's working. Then they kinda get stuck at 30 or they get stuck at 40 or 41 or 50. This is like a plateau. This is a common plateau that I see. So why are we getting stuck there?
Oftentimes it's because freelance writers are scared to get outta their comfort zone, like number one. That's the thing that happens every single time. Um, I end up with. Like I end up with talking, uh, with having coaching sessions or talking to students or having people in my inbox, right, sending me notes.
Basically saying like, well, how do I get over this thing? And then I'm like, when was the last time you raised your rates? What type of clients are you, you know, talking to? Are you like really filtering clients before you get on calls? Are you asking the right questions? Are you connecting with clients who have more things in their pipeline?
Right? Are you, um, looking for bigger clients or are you understanding who your ideal client is? And they can't answer any of that. That's the major problem is they're just like swimming around laps in the same pool and they're like, why is this pool still the same size? And that's the thing is like you can become very blind to the things that are going on in your business.
I know. I was, I know there's plenty of things that I'm blind to right now in my business. Um, and these are kinds of places that we get stuck. There's another, there's, there's another number two is 80. So people get over the 50 K loop, right? They get out of the loop of 30 to 50 K, they hit 60, 70, and then they get stuck at 80.
So they're like, I can't hit six figures. This is the same thing. You have to refine who your ideal client is. What do they need help with? What are their pain points? How are you unique in your writing? Right? How can you uniquely help them? And then you need to refine who your clients are. So this for me came down to.
And I've talked about this a bunch. Like I love series B and series C startups that usually have 20 to 50 million. Those are kind of my butter zone for, uh, content strategy, brand messaging, messaging and positioning clients that came from an, uh, deep analysis of my business and seeing like what are the, the lois that I get the most answers on, right?
Like, who are who, what types of companies are responding or. And I guess it should be, and which type of companies are turning into clients and long-term clients. These are things that we're stretching out over months and years. And a lot of times Lance writers don't do that. They're like, I read an article that someone made a hundred K their first year and like, I'm failing.
No, dude. No. And a lot of times when you see those things, there's a lot of context that's missing. So there's plenty of freelance writers who make six figures, right. But there's also plenty of freelance writers who spent 10 years part-time in it before they went freelance, like full-time. So that allows them to say, my first year full-time freelance, I got made a hundred K.
Right? Sometimes like there's a lot of freelance writers who are very open about that, but some are not. So you need to remember, you can't compare your journeys. You need to focus on your own stuff, your own clients, their pain points, how you're helping and really refining who they are. How much revenue or funding do they have?
What does that client look like? What are their pain points and struggles? What are the things that you've seen across five different, you know, pop PropTech clients or five or 10 different healthcare clients? Like? You need to start tracking the attributes, features, struggles, issues that are going on.
Then you can say like, okay, now I know to refine my search down to this amount of companies. And as you go on, the other thing too is that your numbers are gonna shrink. So like, I'm not sending a hundred lois anymore. I'm probably sending like 50 ish a quarter. So I send about 50 ish a quarter. Uh, and that for me, because I know my client, I get better results that way because I'm super specific about who I'm reaching out to and I have enough data.
And research and understanding to know that if I reach out to certain clients, I'm more likely to get a yes. I'm more likely to get a project, and I'm more likely to be able to help them. Right? I'm not just kind of doing a wide swath. The other thing too that happens with these salaries and when you get stuck at is like people just don't do the marketing.
They straight up don't. I'm like, what are you doing? They're like, I'm hoping someone reaches out to me. No, no, like this is the thing, like you have to become a known quantity or a known entity. I always kind of talked about this with myself when I was really struggling, like after I burned out in 2018.
Are you okay? Bug bear's having kind of a rough day today. He's, hi. He has like a rec, like recurring eye issues, so he's having a rough day. We're not gonna put him on camera, but he's here because he, he wanted to be, uh, he's like real when he has a rough day, he wants to be with his dog mom. So he's in here.
You're okay bud. I know it's really uncomfortable. Um, where was I? There was something important. I was gonna say, um,
oh, when I burned out, so when I burned out in 2018, right. Um, we're kind of getting stuck in these cycles or like we aren't moving outside of our comfort zone. So for me, one of the things that I got stuck at with my burning out was like, I worked all the time and vesna and I had this conversation a lot butts in seats.
A lot of times when I see people get stuck below 50 k, it's, they have the butts and seats mentality, so they're like, oh, my salary, my freelance writer's salary, my freelance writer money, my freelance writer, whatever, however you want, your hourly rate, your project, whatever. They're like, how many hours do I have to put my butt in the seat to get the number I want?
And that's not how it works. So what I used to do was I was like, I'm working all the time, right? So the, I worked all, every day from April to September I had two days off and then I had like a short little vacation right near September cuz I was like, it was bad. So I worked every single day except for two days plus a little tiny vacation right before September where I really had to take time off.
Um, and I was just working all the time and I'm like, how am I not making money? It's because I was churning all these small projects. I was like, hold on.
I turned a ton of small projects, so I'd be like $200, $400, $500, um, $600. Every once in a while I'd have like a thousand dollars project or I'd have a couple of articles that would hit, um, that would hit, um, your like. Kind of my project minimum. Um, but I just kind of butts and seats it butts and seats and butts and seats, right?
I was just like, I have all these hours in the chair, right? I'm doing work constantly and I'm not making more money. That's the biggest problem is like people aren't doing an analysis of their business. They're not looking at that, they're not doing the marketing, right? So like if I had actually been spending that time marketing and I had been refining who I'm sending Lois to and I'm doing.
At like my one hour of marketing every single day, or 50 to 75 Lois a month, I would be in great shape. But a lot of times, like I talk to people and they're like, I don't know what an LOI is. Right? A letter of introduction. Um, and if you don't, I have templates. They're the templates I use right now. Hold on.
They're in here somewhere. Where did it go? Oh, you know what? I think I changed one of 'em anyways. If you go to mandy ellis.com/bundle, let me change this one. Come on computer. We can do it.
Okay, so if you go to mandy ellis.com/bundle, there it is. Um, you can grab my templates that I use. Okay. So if you're watching this and you're like, I just need the template for the loi, or the pitch or the contract, whatever, go to mandy ellis.com/bundle. You can grab 'em. So with those things, you have to, you have to like have time to do marketing and you have to let go a little bit of this like recurring butts in seats.
Like I have to be working all the time. Because when you're working all the time, you don't have time to build your business. You're working too much on, in your business, not on your business. So that's a big thing is like a lot of people don't do the marketing or they keep pitching the same magazines like I've.
Like there's a big difference between pitching like the New York Times and like, or um, like there was a trade magazine that I just talked to that pays a dollar a word, or, uh, Kanye Nast Traveler or like big magazines that'll pay you the big bucks rather than like pitching the same local magazine for 10 years and still getting paid 30 cents a word.
Like you have to let go at some point of small time stuff. It's like this trade game. Okay, so instead of butts and seats where you're just like, Going and at it all the time. You have to have time to work on your business. You have to send the lois or you have to send the pitches and you have to move up tiers.
Like you have to move up tiers of magazines, like move from your local magazines to more national and bigger publications or ones that pay more, right? Same thing with sending your lois. You need to kind of move up in terms of clients. This doesn't always mean move up in terms of revenue. Sometimes this can mean, um, moving up in terms of like what your analysis says.
So I have a story for that, but hold on one second.
Barry, I had to take care of Barry's eyes. He's, he needed an eye cleaning and also like, he just, he needed an eye cleaning and, yeah. Okay, so where was I? We were talking about marketing. You okay now? Oh, he's so sad today. Um, So we were talking about salaries, we were talking about, um, oh, marketing. So that's the thing is when you're marketing, it's not just about going up with clients.
It's not just about like saying like, oh, um, my client needs a hundred million in revenue. Like, I'm just gonna move up to 500 million. That's how, um, when I was working with real estate agents, I, I told my students this story and I think it's a good one. I, at first was like, sweet, they have 20 to 50 million or 30 million or 70 million, and that should be enough for a budget.
Nope, it was a hundred million. So when I made these big lists of real estate brokerages and I was reaching out to different types of brokerages all around the country, I realized the people who had a budget had a hundred million. In revenue. Are you okay? Okay, hold on.
Does that help? No, you're all right. It's just a little antsy in the pany. So I realized real estate agents who actually had a budget, um, for content marketing efforts had a hundred million, right? So I had to learn that through trial and error of like, okay, I have to be at a hundred million for this to work.
Um, and then you want your duck.
There you go. I know today's a rough day. I know. Um, and then I realized that when I was working with other clients that my series B and series C'S startups needed about 20 to 50 million, right. It's also about experimenting to find that number. So I'm not saying that going up in clients necessarily means going up in revenue.
Right? It doesn't necessarily mean like everybody's just gonna work for billion dollar companies. Uh, a lot of us find our good clients by just doing analysis, right? Um, and another good example is it depends on niche. So some companies, especially like companies that have to develop something like a technology or.
Like, uh, like I'm vena's here cuz she's a good, vena's a good example, right? So Vena's clients need maybe like a hundred million just to get started because they need that money to build the biotechnology or the science before they even start marketing it. Like they need a lot of funding just to get their product to work or just to get something going, right?
So I feel like a lot of times when we're thinking about that, it's really dependent on your niche or what your clients are doing and we're refining that over time. Uh, Shweta. Let me know if that's how you say your name. Shweta, or is it Shweta? Let me know. Um, she says, how do we find out how much revenue a company has?
Again, good question. Google it. Literally, most of the time if you Google like company name revenue, like even if it's a small startup, it'll show you how much funding they got. Um, one is Google it. Two Crunchbase. We'll show you a lot of revenues for a lot of companies. Um,
Shta. Okay. I'm gonna, I'm gonna figure it out. Shweta. Okay. Um, we have Crunchbase that'll give us revenue Tech crunch. There's a lot of articles in there that will give revenues and big lists of companies. Glassdoor is another one where you can find revenues. Um, LinkedIn will oftentimes have, uh, funding, like funding amounts or, um, Perfect pronunciation.
Sweet. I'm getting there. Sometimes I just have like, I, I'm getting there. I'm working on it. So, um, yeah, so LinkedIn, a lot of times we'll have, um, company revenue informa information or funding information. Um, Glassdoor, sometimes er, but our can be a little bit weird. So, o like owl, like O W L E R, Owler. But most of the time you can find their revenue by just straight up Googling it.
Uh, I use Crunchbase or I'm using LinkedIn. You can use LinkedIn Premium, like Sales Navigator will. You can create lists based on revenue. Uh, sales Navigator was a hundred bucks a month. It's always changing. I don't know what it is now. I think it's actually cheaper, but I'm not sure. Um, but it's always changing.
So if you have LinkedIn Premium Sales navigator, then you can end up, um, finding company revenues. And you should be able to find them for free for, for a lot of places. But the other thing too is that, um, When you're looking for revenues, if you can't find a company's revenue, most of the time it's too low.
But even if you can't find their revenue, if they're creating a bunch of content or it looks like they're growing, or the little stat, like if you have LinkedIn Premium, it'll show you the company's growth. Like on the page, it'll say like, here's how much they've been growing, or Here's how many people they hired.
Uh, if you're kind of in the 50 to a hundred employees and they're growing, like, that's usually a good, good client. Um, but it should be pretty easy to find revenue. Like, uh, if you're ha if you have a company that's large enough, um, you can be able to find it. And the revenue ranges. I'll say that again. So.
You need to have five to 50 million for a traditional, regular company, and a startup needs at least three to 10 million. Okay. It can be higher than that, but it's definitely not lower. Um, I remember when I first started out, I was like, oh, a million dollars. That's so much money. It's not enough money for content marketing, I can tell you that.
Um, cool. Okay. Shweta. Shta. Okay. I'm gonna remember that. I'm gonna put that in my noodle. So these are kind of the first things. There's a bunch of other stuff I wanna talk about and I'm already way into times. So, um, you can always tell if I've been talking with my students a lot because these live streams get really long because I just like, I am so used to telling my students like a ton of information.
Okay, let's talk about two then. So let's talk about moving beyond our money allergy one. Talk about it more. The best way to get over your money allergy or being afraid of freelance writer wealth or being afraid of your potential or or asking for more money, is you just normalize it more. This is very hard for a lot of us, but if you talk to more freelance writers about rates, if you share more information, if you grab my free pricing guide and then you're like, Hey, I actually got a rate higher than your max, tell me so I can update the free pricing guide.
Um, but we need to talk about this more as a community. This is a thing that we've been kind of still flirting with. I feel like since I started as a freelance writer, um, even when I started, I felt like not that many people were open about rates, and now I feel like it's a little bit more open. Um, but we need to talk about this a lot more.
Like I still come across tons of freelance writers who won't share their rates or like, um, who are in like, communities that are like, you should just figure that out for yourself. Like, you should just base that on value. And they're like, okay, but where do I even get started? And they're like, figure it out.
Um, but your money allergy, we're moving across it by talking about it more. Number one, talking about it with more freelance writers, two. You need to know your client's budget information. This is a conversation I have all the time when someone's like, help me price a project. And I'm like, what did they say their budget was?
They're like, I don't know. I didn't ask. You have to ask about budget. You have to ask about it. Yes, we can kind of guess a number like saying, Hey, I'm thinking about this and I think it should be in this ballpark, but there's also this thing that like if the company tells you their budget and you already know by hearing that number, That it's way below what you take.
Right. Then. You don't even need to sweat over it. There's a lot of anxiety, right? We, we get a lot of anxiety over money, and this is where the money allergy comes in. Is like we gained all this anxiety and then we learned that someone's like, oh, I wanna pay you $50 for a blog post. And then you're like, why did I get worked up about it?
This is why we ask about budget. We're looking for fit. We're not looking to like max out the budget, we're looking for fit. Are we in the same ballpark? Are we playing the same sport? Or are you like, you know, playing badminton and I'm playing like in the NFL where like we're in two totally different camps here.
So the deal is that budget information gives us. The connection point of we are playing in the same field, then we can kind of figure out like, okay, is that budget reasonable for this work? Let me go, excuse me. Let me go pull the value and let me figure out like what I think the value of that work is with me doing it, with my skills, with the timelines, all that stuff, and we'll see if that's a match.
Most of the time, if you ask about budget, you're like, that sounds about, you know, like most of the time with good clients, not all clients, but most of the time with good clients, they're like, you know, here's what we have for budget. Here's what we're thinking per blog post or per case study. And they're pretty much on the mark.
Um, but there are times where you need to ask for more money, right? Or you say like, Hey, I normally do work for X As you get more experienced as a freelance writer, like, you know that if someone says, like a case study or you know, if someone says, um, That they're looking for like a thousand to, uh, to 1500 word blog posts with a ton of research that you're like, I normally work that for a dollar 25 a word or whatever.
So as you get more experience, you have kind of more a of a framework to kind of give yourself guardrails of what you can expect and what you should work with. Um, but when we're kind of talking about money, you have to ask about budget. You have to ask your clients about budget. And then three. I think the, um, I think the important thing too with three is like we, we have to charge for the value of that work, the lifetime value of that work.
Okay. Stop quibbling over tens of dollars. That's crazy town. Like this is the thing that I talk about all the time. Like there's a plenty of times where your client. We'll have your content work for them for years, right? It'll work for years. It'll bring in traffic and leads and sales, and you never see any of that, and you're there quibbling over the one transaction of this blog post or this retainer.
Instead of saying like, I know they're gonna make a ton of money from this, right? That's why we're doing the content part of marketing, right? That's why it's called content marketing. It is the content piece. Of marketing it is helping with all the marketing efforts. So there's a lot of times where we quibble over this small amounts of money, and this is the salary thing, like the, when you're thinking about that, like the people who get stuck at 10, 20, 30, 50, and 80, they're not understanding the lifetime value of the content.
They're not understanding, they're like still quibbling over these small amounts of money that nobody cares about. If you have a client, like the one good example I have is like when I quote, like I say, this thing is a thousand bucks. And someone says, oh, well now our budget, now that you said a thousand, we realize our budget is 800.
Can you meet at 900? And I say, yes, that's the time I will quibble over a small amount of money because they didn't tell me a budget. Now that they heard what it, what I normally charge. Now we can agree on a middle number. Uh, but I'm like, there's a lot of times where I talk to people that are like, oh yeah, like.
You know, we negotiated $50 less. And I'm like, why? Why? Like, it, it's just like there, you know, it's just this trying to get a deal thing rather than understanding the value of the content. Shweta says . Okay. Shta says, um, come on computer. We can do it. There we go. Um, is it reasonable to do unpaid guest posts at first to build a portfolio if my portfolio is scan to nil?
I have never done free work. This is something that I feel like I say all the time, but people are surprised to hear. I have never done free work. You don't have to do free work. Content marketing is super, super valuable. I don't care if you get paid a very small amount, like I used to get paid like 25 bucks for a 1500 word bog post, which was terrible, but you need to get paid for your work.
I like the guest post thing is I don't think is worth the same stuff that it used to be like 10, 15 years ago. Like a lot of times people would be like, oh, I'll just write a guest post. Uh, you're better off pitching ideas to a trade magazine or an online publication or getting some kind of magazine clip to get a portfolio going.
Rather than doing unpaid work, someone will pay you for your ideas. I don't care if it's a business or a magazine or a very small publication that's local or your paper, your local paper, that'll give you 25 bucks for 500 words. You can get paid for your work. So, no, I don't think you should do. Um, Cool.
You do. I don't think you have to do unpaid guest posts. I don't think you have to do unpaid work. Uh, the other thing that I often say is like, no one's doing recon on you. No one's gonna go defcon one on your clients and be like, Hey, did you know that Sweta uh, Shweta didn't get paid for any of that other work?
They don't, there's no, there's no, no one's gonna find out that you did unpaid work. Like I just, no one does that. Um, and if they did, you'd be like, yeah, that was a mistake. Now I'm charging for my work. It's now $200. Do you wanna do it or not? Like, that's the end of that. So I really, I, this is something that I tell my Wealth Lab students in the course.
So in the wealth lab, I. I, there's a specific module that goes, or a lesson that goes over clips, and I tell you it's a personal choice if you choose to do work for free, that is a personal choice, but I, I will support you, but I don't agree with that. Okay? So if you decide to do free work, I will support you that you have made the right decision for you.
But I don't agree with doing that. Like I will not. Um, I'm not gonna perpetuate the idea that creative stuff or arts or content should be that we have to like, uh, do a ton of stuff for free just to get our foot in the door. Like, um, one of the things that always bugs me is like I had, uh, like I went to Virginia Tech, so at Virginia Tech, it's very high engineering, right?
My dad went there, he's an engineer. Uh, so they get like, 50, 60 bucks an hour for their internship, and I'm doing, uh, an unpaid internship for, for credit, right? So like I can't get a paid internship. And so I'm not gonna perpetuate that. Like, I'm not gonna be part of that continuing cycle where like, you know, we get paid less.
And there's plenty of times where there's freelance writers who make more money than engineers. Okay? So like, let's not even, I'm not going there, but I'm just saying you can choose to do that. I will support you in that, but I'm not gonna agree with that as a good idea. I know that sounds harsh sometimes, but I I have to, I That's like a soapbox.
I, that's like one of my soap boxes is like, I'm not gonna perpetuate the English major work for free. Shit. I'm not gonna do it. Sorry. Oh no. Um oh, you went to U V A. No way. That's so funny. I've met actually a couple people who went to UVA recently. Okay, Shweta says, uh, you do say that. I agree. Um, have been feeling some imposter syndrome and I'm not sure why they should hire me, sort of thing.
Yeah. That's driving your, do I have to do it for free? So it's more mindset work around money and understanding that your work is super valuable. Okay. It's, it's, I feel like. You have to understand that your quality of work is important. That's why people are seeking it out, right? There's, there's more freelance opportunities than there have been probably ever, like there's a study that said like, more than 50% or 60% of the workforce is gonna be freelancers in the next 10 or 15 years.
So the deal is that what you wanna, what you wanna remember is that you are bringing quality content. You are gonna do your best work that you can do right now within this timeframe. Okay? So I feel like you have to remember you are bringing quality. You're not bringing tons of quantity. That's like, we're not looking to churn.
So if I'm bringing quality, I should be paid for that. Like there's a big difference right between going to a fancy sandwich shop where they have like, Fresh mozzarella, um, and fresh herbs. And they're making homemade sauces versus like if you go to a chain sandwich place, right? There's a big difference there.
We're not the chain restaurant. This is what I, I, I made this, uh, comment. It's the Michelin starred thing. We are Michelin start. Okay? So we're creating Michelin starred content. We're not Taco Bell, where people drive through and get a dollar 99 taco. This is not it. So, Think about that you're offering someone the chance.
I know this is all ripped up. Look at that. This is, could be super old. Um, think about it as the chance that you're, or you're giving your clients the chance to get Michelin starred content versus Taco Bell drive-through. I think that'll kind of help switch the mindset thing. Yes. Michelin starred content.
I saw you guys put in a ton of comments. Um, yes, that's my favorite soap. That's one of my favorite soap boxes is like, don't work for free. Jennifer says, I always think about plumbers charging for their work. No. Free sync repair samples. Exactly. There are so many industries that never work for free, but for some reason, like this is, um, if you guys haven't read, um, real Artists Don't Starve by Jeff Goins.
That changed my life. Like that book Real Artists Don't Starve By Jeff. Go. Jeff Goins. Um, the story that you, that I always remember was, um, I can't remember, I think it was Mi, Michelangelo, um, Michelangelo, Michelangelo, um, some famous person. I think it was Michelangelo. Who lived on property. So the rich people back in the day, right?
15 hundreds or 14 hundreds, 16, not, probably not 16 hundreds, but probably 15 hundreds and below. They used to have like famous artists, or they used to have like people in the arts live on their property, like lawn nomes. And then they would have people tour the property to show them how rich they were by like how many lawn known artists they would have.
Right? And so, Michelangelo actually lived a very wealthy life. There's a plenty of people who lived extremely wealthy lives, and no one ever talks about it. They're just like, um, the, the dude, um, I, oh my gosh. The guy that I have a vendetta against, the guy who made the lab behem thing that I'm now forgetting his name.
I've talked about it before. Um, oh. I can't remember, but the guy, he's in the same book. He's the one that popularized the whole starving artist thing and everyone just bought into it. So before he did it in like, uh, whenever it was like in the 18 hundreds. So like basically for the last 150 years, everybody just bought into this idea.
But before that, it didn't really exist and they lived rich lives. So like, you have to remember these things. Like this is just a new modern invention, this starving artist crap. Um, yes. There's lots of famous artists who were starving at the time, like Van Gogh, I think was one. Um, but there's lots of times where people are making good money and they never talk about it.
So remember, like, this is the other thing that, um, I think, Jennifer, we talked about this too, where contractors don't like come in and then say like, oh, well I'll give you this. Like, they don't just like start working on your kitchen, right? They have a contract, they get an upfront payment, they start the work.
They, there's all these things that other contractors do that like writers are scared to do. And if you just look across, People who work in a contract style industry, we are like still in like, you know, 1200 while everybody else is kind of moving along. Okay. Um, yes, not Taco Bell. Fager says, what about charging a little less when we're trying to switch niches and have no experience in that niche?
No, it's not ideal. Uh, but I'm thinking gaining experience is also important. Thoughts, so this is. It depends. My answer is, it depends. One, I don't think you should charge less because you're just, cuz you're switching niches doesn't mean you're erasing the skills, quality and experience that you're bringing to the table.
Like that's, I don't think that, I think that's more of an insecurity about moving into a new niche than like what your clients would say. Right. If you went in there and you were like, like, okay, imagine this. If I went in there with 25 years or 30 years of freelance writing experience, I made 500 grand a year.
And someone was like, you should probably cut your rates cuz it's a new niche. That would be nut town, right? Imagine you are that person. I always, um, like those ideas where they're like, act like the person you wanna become. So let's say you have a huge business, it makes a ton of money, right? And you have lots of years of experience.
You would never cut your rates. You'd be like, no, I've proven myself 900,000 times. Just cuz this is a new niche. I'm not riding a totally new bicycle. The bicycle just has a new paint job, right? So I think it depends. One, I will negotiate with people. So I think if you're trying to switch niches, I think you should use your rates and see how it goes.
But I also think that. If you're gonna negotiate a little bit, that's more reasonable if you're switching niches, cuz you're like, yeah, I technically don't have a clip. But it doesn't mean like, there's this thing that I've talked about recently is like writers think their skills just get erased. They're like, now that I'm writing in a new niche, everything has been erased, my mind has been cleared.
Like men in black, no dude, you have the same skills. We're just writing about a different topic. Can you write about toothpaste? And then can you write about floss? And then can you write about dog sunscreen? Probably not that hard, right? Like I just, Hey, Getty, it's nice to see you. So I, your clients wouldn't know that, right?
So your clients wouldn't even know you're, they're getting a rate cut. So that's another thing to remember. If I'm going into a new niche and I don't have any clips, I'm not gonna go to my client and be like, I'm giving you a rate cut. I would just cut my rate and send that to them. Right. So they wouldn't even know.
So they wouldn't know if you were sending them your regular rate. Rate. Right. And if they wanted negotiate, you could do that. But I always feel like this is kind of a, like we are doing it, they don't know that. Right. So you're like, oh, in order to get the, in this new niche, I need to cut 150 bucks off my blog post rate or whatever.
They don't even know that. You don't even go to that client and say, Hey, I'm giving you a discount, cuz I don't have clips. We, I've never done that. I've ne even, like, even if I do give them a discount without telling them Right, they don't know that cuz I haven't told them. Uh, that's why I think you should go in with your regular rates and see how it goes.
And most of the time writers are undercharging. Right. So the other thing that's a good example is there are times when writers undercharge and their clients actually tell them to charge more, right? So there's times where they go in and your client gets suspicious because your rate is so much lower than what they're U used to paying.
So then if you cut your rate, now you look like you're not good at your job, right? It's like this weird thing that happens. So clients like, especially clients that are big, giant, uh, businesses or clients that are used to working with. Uh, big giant agencies, they're used to paying a ton of money. So if you start cutting rates, then they're like, oh, this person must not be that good cuz they're not charging what the last person did.
I don't, I, I think that's a personal choice, but one, I would just go in with your rates and see what happens. Yes, you can negotiate, but honestly, like, it's, it doesn't, the niche thing is just like, can you do the research? Are you diligent? Are you good at figuring it out? Uh, are you okay? Okay. All right.
He's all right. Um, you're, you can figure it out. And it's like I said, like I, I don't know hardly any writers who actually go to a new client in a new niche and tell them they're giving a discount. So that discount is only on your side, which means that's, that's like a mindset thing, right? So, um, I have cut my rates based on negotiation with clients, and I have cut my rates when I'm switching dishes, which I shouldn't have.
Um, but yeah, like it's just, just because you're writing about a new topic doesn't mean you've lost all the skills to do that.
I know we have a bunch of questions, so hold on. I wanna make sure I get to the rest of this topic, and I know it's getting late, so hold on. Let's answer these questions. Vesna says regarding switching niches, your internal rate will go down anyways. They don't need to know that though. Exactly. Like no.
When you're switching niches and it takes more time and it's more research, or you have to learn something, your backend, hourly rate, if you track, that will go down, but they're not gonna know that either, right? So you can still charge $400 for a blog post or whatever you're charging for a blog post. Man, my hair's just like in my face today.
You can charge whatever you want for a blog post. It'll just take you more time. Right. But your client doesn't know that. Right? It's just not, I just don't think that's, yeah. Um, Jennifer said, why would it be good to be a starving artist? If not, that's why it's so crazy. I forget I've said that guy's name on here before.
Hi, his name is French. Is is, um, he is from France and it was like 1847 or 1849. His name is like, I, I wrote it down somewhere. Right? If you're worried about your next meal, how could you do your best work? Your focus would be on your basic needs. Exactly. This is what happens with a lot of writers that are in feast and famine and back to our topic.
Allergic to money. They're so worried about like basic keeping the lights on, they're forgetting all this stuff, right? Like they're forgetting the value of their work. They're just like, oh my God, they're just in the cycle. They're not able to work on their business. They're not paying attention to like raising their rates or working with different clients or even something that's, um, an interesting thing is they don't even track like what a red light client is.
They're just like, oh, my clients seem to do this, and I'm like, that's not right. Right? They, they need to track the things that are going on, but. If you're so anxious about all these things, right, and all this terrible stuff that's gonna happen, it, it keeps you stuck in the allergy, right? The money allergy.
And the deal is you have to talk more about it. You have to get budgets, you have to learn about your rates. You have to move up to clients that are a better fit for you. You have to understand what a good client is, right? Good clients are just regular people who are nice. Well, that's not, that's like the most basic thing.
Okay? Fedra says yes. En rere. That's what his name was. That's right. Yeah. Pedro says, thank you Andy. Just wait here. Good. Don't cut your rates. Yes, Enri, because he is French. Enri. Marre, that guy. I have a big vendetta against him. He already died like a hundred years ago, but I don't care. Okay, let's talk about three real quick, cuz we gotta get hopping along.
This has been a long one, but we had really good questions. I'm glad that you guys asked those questions because. The more questions we can ask, the better we can move forward. And there's like 50 other writers have that have the same question. Yeah. Research. Yes. Uh, if you feel like this has been helpful so far, give it a thumbs up if you feel like you wanna learn more about building a high earning or sustainable or freelance writing business, you adore, subscribe.
Let's talk about three. Um, oh, let's talk about clients and money and rates. So one, the major thing when we're talking to, um, when we're talking to our clients about money and rates, One, ask for budget on the initial call. And I do this now before I get on a call, cuz I, um, I am more particular about who I get on a call with.
So I will say like, what's, tell me about the project? What's the word count? What are the details? What can you share about the project scope? What are the timelines and what's the budget? So I'll ask that in an email before I get on a call because I don't wanna get on a ton of calls anymore. Um, I wanna get on calls with people who I'm pretty sure are a really good fit.
And then now getting on the call is like building the relationship. So, When we're talking about things with our clients, I used to drink a ton of water cuz in my mouth we get so dry on a client call and I would have very bad cotton mouth. It was awful. It's not that stressful. This is the, the new thing that I think I've been, uh, that makes sense.
It's just a person at their desk eating a sandwich during lunch. It's a regular ass person. That's it. It's not some magic person who has a magic wand to like grant you freelance writing work or to like befall money. Like money befalls you because of this person. That's not the case. The deal is that your, um, Your clients are just regular ass people who unfortunately work in the cubicle farm.
Right. We became freelancers cuz we don't wanna be in the cubicle farm. Just remember that like it's when I used to very much be like, oh my gosh, I have to get this job. Like I have to be super professional. I have to do this thing. There's like a jillion clients out there. You don't have to do anything.
The other thing is like, it's a regular person. It's a regular person working a regular job. Just talk to 'em like you're having a coffee meeting with some person that you're meeting for the first time. When you ratchet up the pressure and you're like, I have to get this job, or I have to make this work, or I have to blah, blah, blah.
It makes it really stressful and you connect with the wrong clients cuz you're like buzzing up here and they're like off in sandwich land having just a regular call, right? We wanna be on the kind of preach, um, we kind of wanna be on the same wavelength as them. So when you're talking about them, just say, Hey, you know, this is our initial call, and if you don't wanna do it on the initial call, do it in the initial email.
Hey, what's going on? What are the, what's the scope? What's the word counts? What's the page count? How much research time are you expecting? Or how much research do I need to do? Do I need two studies or 10 studies? Do I need to interview four people? Um, what's your budget? We need to just kind of normalize that.
If you don't ask about budget, then we have to shoot in the dark. I always call, call it like a stab in the dark, which is fine. We can do that. But we also wanna, like I said, we wanna be playing the same sport If they're in badminton, right? And we are in football, like in the N F L and they're in like playing bad or like, let's say pickleball, right?
A lot of retirees are playing pickleball right now. That's growing as a sport. So let's say I'm a retiree playing pickleball versus like, um, Like Mahomes, right? There's a big gap there. Um, or even, you know, uh, Travis Kelsey or whatever. Like, let's say there's just a huge gap there. We wanna be like the Mahomes Kelsey Group.
We don't wanna be like the retiree pickle group based on budget. I'm not saying anything about lifestyles. I'm saying like, we need to be playing the same sport on the same wavelength. So one normalize asking that when you talk to the client for the first time, two, it's okay to negotiate. But you need to remember that you are negotiating based on understanding the long-term value of your work.
You are a Michelin starred content, okay? You offer Michelin starred content. You are not a dollar 99 cheeseburger or a dollar 99 taco that like, you know, you get through a drive-through and you can just get a thousand of 'em. You are someone who owns a Michelin starred restaurant who has a three to six month wait list who like people are clamoring to get in the door and give you all the money to try your experience of content, right?
That's the mindset you should have. And the more you, you don't ratchet up the pressure on money, the easier it is to talk about it. You're just like, yeah. So, and this is another thing I wanted to make sure I sat on this video. I do this all the time. Um, I will have someone say, what's your rate for a blog post?
Like, they'll just, you know, we'll be talking and they'll be like, okay, well what's your rate? Or Can you send me a rate sheet? And I'm like, I don't have a rate sheet. I priced by the project. But I was gonna ask you, did you have any budgetary information that you can share, or did you already work with freelance writers that, uh, you could share the rates that you paid in the past?
So you can just turn that question right back around on them and just say, yeah, I was wondering that too. Like, did you have a budget? And then they answer it and then you're like, sweet. Now I have this information. Are we, are we Mahomes and Kelsey, right? Or are we, are we, you know, retirees playing pickleball in our backyard?
Right. Um, so I feel, I know Jennifer, I always make you hungry cuz I use a lot of food analogies. But being a food restaurant writer, like, it's just, I don't know, it makes sense in my mind. So, um, We are, we are trying to make sure we're on that same wavelength, right? The budget thing is important. Um, and like I said, like you can just turn it around.
It's not hard, like if they say like, do you one? They're like, what's your rate for X thing? Or do you have a rate sheet? You just say, no, I priced by the project, so I don't have a rate sheet. I make it, all of my projects are different. Like some people need 50 studies, some people need no studies. Some people need a bunch of interviews, some people don't.
Some people wanna do this. It's like a, it's very different. So I just don't, I, it's, I don't wanna do that. Plus, if you give them a rate sheet, they think that's the price forever. And now you've become the menu at McDonald's, right? They're just like, oh, we just picked something off this menu. Every once in a while I'll give ballpark rates.
So like if I have a client that's like, Hey, we have six different projects and we are trying to map out our budget for the next six months to a year, can you give us a ballpark range on these projects? Absolutely ballpark range. I can do that. But like a rate sheet where they're like, every time they do this type of blog post, it always costs this amount of money.
No. So after you say that, no, I worked by the project, you can say, but I was wondering if you had any budget. You know, do you have any, a specific budget that you wanna stay in or did you have an idea of what you, you know, thought, uh, the rate would be for a blog post or a case study or whatever. And then you can say, or have you worked with freelancers in a PA in the past and have a rate you feel comfortable with?
All you do is turn that back around and you usually get all the information you need. And now we know whether we're Mahomes and Kelsey, or we're. Backyard pickle balling. Okay? The other thing is just make it, just remember like your, your, I don't know, pick your favorite meal and you're talking to your client over your favorite meal.
I don't care if your favorite meal is a bagel or it's a lobster tail pick whatever kind of your favorite meal is, and imagine that the conversation that you're having with your client on Zoom or whatever is a, a conversation you would have over your favorite meal, and kind of take the pressure out.
Just enjoy it. Just enjoy the meal. And if it's not a fit, it's not a fit. But the more you're yourself, the better you are at attracting the right clients and getting on the same bus and the same wavelength. Okay, let's go to four. Hold on. Let's go to four. Let's go to four. Come on computer. We can do this.
There we go. My computer's sad because I've been doing a lot of video stuff recently, so like it's all, Ugh, I fit, I messed up the the like thing too, so like it's little blurry and I have to remember to like stand in a different spot. So I need to fix that. Um, Marie says also the, they'll think that they have a blog post when it's absolutely a white paper and a big difference, um, because they'll pick the lowest price.
Yes. This is a thing that happens, right? This is a thing that happens where someone says, oh, it's just a blog post, and you look at it and you're like, no, this is a white paper, or This is a case study, or this is an ebook, or this is a guide, and you're like, this should be twice. If not more of the price, right?
So that's another important thing is like you have to suss out money, budget, project scope, and information. Get examples from that client so that you know what you're actually writing so you can charge appropriately. Let's talk about four. Okay. We're gonna normalize this. We're gonna normalize these current, I call them currency conversations.
I think we should normalize them more like whether you're talking to clients or you're talking to more freelance writers. The more we normalize. Excuse me. The more we normalize talking about money and rates and projects and scopes and how to do these things, the better our industry is. The higher the rates get, um, the better.
Like we actually, the better return our clients get, the more, um, effort and energy we put into our projects. Uh, cuz I don't know about you, but I've pl been on plenty of projects where I've undercharged only to realize that later and then become bitter with the client. Right? I'm just like, you should be charging me, like, I should be charging you twice the price.
Like, this is crazy. And they don't know they're getting a deal, right? They don't know that you, you just messed it up, right? I've messed it up plenty of times. Um, but the deal is that what, the more we talk about this in our community, right, the more we can lessen the money allergy, the more you talk about your clients, you realize it's just a part of the conversation.
It's not the whole conversation, it's just part of it. Uh, and it's really important because we wanna be on the same sport, like we wanna be on the same wavelength. And it's also really important because you need to get paid what you're worth, right? Uh, the story that I tell is that there's this article, right?
And this article got 15 million in sales, one article on someone's blog, right? Um, it was a pool company, right? And I've had, I have a live stream about this. You can check my channel for it, but one article made $15 million. Or like, let's say your, um, your client makes. A huge pile of sales from you writing content or a case study or white paper or ebook or blog posts that you did.
You're not getting any of that. They're not gonna cut you a check for a percentage of 15 million or a percentage of 500 k or whatever they made in sales. Your job is to understand the lifetime value of your content and charge appropriately. Now, we are not transactional in like, oh, well, is it eight 50 or is it 800?
It's $50. Get the $50. You can always negotiate down if you really want to. Um, but we have to remember that like our content, like I have, um, content that's on people, like different clients' websites that still brings them traffic leads and sales, and I haven't talked to them in years. I still have, um, Articles that are on the first page of Google for clients I haven't talked to in years, they're still getting traffic and ad sales and all that stuff, right?
So you have to remember that. You have to remember where your content, um, Where your content lives and the function that it has after you stop writing it, we're not transactional. Okay? Stop thinking about it as like pennies and dollars and like little tiny pieces of money charge what you're gonna charge.
And that either works for them or they, or it doesn't. Or you can negotiate a price. Like I said, good clients who wanna work with you will negotiate with you. Man, we, we, we now realize like the story right? I charge a thousand dollars for that. And the client's like, well now we realize our budget is 800.
Will you meet at 900? A good client will always kind of figure that out. Or they'll say, Hey, we realize now our budget is 800. We totally understand if you don't wanna cut $200 outta your rate, but you know, we'd love to work with you, we love your samples, whatever. Um, I f like that's an important thing to remember.
Okay, last two questions and then we're gonna hop off cuz I actually have to go. Supposed to go at one o'clock. Um, Jennifer says, What do you do? Wait a minute, what do you do when they hedge on their budget? That's what's your, uh, what's your rate versus what's your budget dance? Uh, if they're going to be weird about it, like if I, if I turn the question around and I say, Hey, you know, um, uh, like, what's your budget?
And they turn it back on me. I'll just, I sometimes, sometimes if I'm like, okay, if we're gonna play games, you know, Um, then I just give them like a high rate. I'll say like, Hey, I, you know, that's normally a dollar a word, and I'll see what they say. Um, or sometimes what ends up happening is I'm like, I'll, I'll say like, I don't, you know, quote on the phone, I'll, I need to think about this project.
And, or if it's something I've done like a million times, like something I've done many times, I'll be like, Hey, um, I. Uh, I normally have charged this in the past, but it, you know, I can't give you a straight answer on the, on a call. I need to think about the project. So, yeah, I will sometimes if they don't tell me budget or if they don't answer like the turned around question, um, or whatever on a call, I'll tell them I don't quote on the call.
I'll tell them like, if I have done that project many, many times and I kind of know what I would charge, I'll give 'em like a little bit of a ballpark. Um, if they're gonna be a poop about it, then I'll say a really high rate just to see what they say. Um, and then the other thing too is like if you start sensing that your clients are playing games about that, then that's a red flag.
So like, I do it because a lot of times I'm looking for my client to give me a straight answer. So like, if I'm turning the question on them, they're like, oh, it's normally this. And you're like, okay, we're playing the same sport. Um, rather than them being like, getting a deal, like I don't wanna be in a conversation where like, they're like, well, what's your rate?
And then they're like, sweet. It's cheaper than what we thought. Like, da da. You know, like, I don't like that feeling. I would rather have this idea of like them saying like, here's the ballpark we're playing in. Are we in the same sport? Um, okay. Last thing is Celeste says, what's the best book on money mindset in your opinion?
Profit First. Profit First by Mike Malowitz changed my life. Uh, there's lots of good books on Money Mindset. So like The Wealthy Freelancer, uh, six Figure Freelancer, um, what's the one by, um, the Well Fed writer, but Profit First was the biggest one. Profit First made the biggest change in my business because it taught me not only money mindset, but it helped me understand how my business can have profit all the time.
Um, and it helped me manage my taxes. It helped me see how my money was moving around. Um, so that is like, it changed the way I view my whole business financial picture. So it wasn't just like getting over mindset blocks, it was like actually functional, like every day changing how I did my money. But yeah, so Profit First by Mike Malowitz.
The other good ones are the wealthy freelancer wealth ed writer, six figure freelancer. Um, there's a bunch. We have a book club. I'm actually late. I'm supposed to go to the book club right now. We have a book club in our, uh, breakthrough community, which is our post wealth lab community. Um, I'm supposed to go there right now, so we're gonna go talk about books right now.
Um, Marie says that she was offered two 50 for blog posts to write. It was actually case studies and articles. Client said, since I'll give you this work, you can gimme a 25% discount. Yeah. That's when you get in weird conversations about it and you just don't wanna be doing that. Um, so, okay. So I hope this has been helpful.
I hope that this has kind of helped you see where you might have opportunities to talk more about money or to understand that it's not this big deal. Pick your favorite meal and imagine you're having your favorite meal, um, with your client. And it's just, we're, it's just part of the conversation. It's just one, you know, one little tidbit in a, in a big conversation.
Um, the other thing is that we, we need to make sure that we are charging our, we're increasing our rates. We're getting out of our small client pools and getting into bigger ones. We're tracking our clients. We're figuring out who's a better client for us so that we don't get stuck at like those freelance writer salaries that are like, you know, 10 K or 30 K, or 50 K or 80.
Right. Cool. Good. Yay. I'm glad it's been delightful. I'm glad that this has been helpful. I need to go to the book club. Um, so, um, I'm glad this has been helpful. Ask your clients more about money, normalize It, ask other freelancers about it. Last thing right is grab the pricing guide. If you haven't grabbed the free pricing guide, you should mandy ellis.com/pricing guide.
This is why I made it cuz we need to talk more about rates. This also includes all different project types as well as content strategy and messaging, positioning projects. So important stuff there. All right. I hope everybody has a really good, um, Friday. I will see you next Friday. I'm here every Friday at noon central time.
If this has been helpful, give it a thumbs up. If you wanna subscribe to get more info, info about how to build a hiring freelance writing business, you adore, or just, you know, build a freelance writing business that works for you, subscribe. Cool, I'll see you guys next Friday. Bye.
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